A parent’s experience of court and pre-proceedings: Rebecca

[Introduction]

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence-informed practice with children and families, young people and adults.  

Hannah: So, welcome to this Research in Practice podcast, my name is Hannah Scott, I'm a research and development officer at Research in Practice and I'm also a qualified social worker. And I previously worked in child protection roles. I'm delighted to be talking to Rebecca today, who is a mum of two daughters and she's got previous experience with care proceedings and social care, and she's going to be talking to us about her experiences in the family court and some key learning and experience sharing for social workers to understand the experience of parents when they are going through the family court. So, hi Rebecca, it's great to have you with us today.

Rebecca: Hello.

[Background] 

Hannah: Would you like to start by just giving us just a short, sort of, overview of your background and your experience with social care in the family court? 

Rebecca: Well, firstly, it started with my oldest daughter, her dad said that I had done child neglect, which I hadn't, but social services took it in as a high priority because, at the time, my mum had just passed away. And I'm not going to say I'm a perfect person because everyone has their faults but, at the time, my house wasn't decorated so that was, like, a concern for the local authorities. Her case was closed, we didn't go to court proceedings for her but, when I had my youngest, I had to show the local authorities that I was a good parent. So, when I gave birth, 2017, I was in the hospital for weeks even though I had my daughter because they wanted to place me in a mother and baby unit but they had to wait for a place to be available. So they put me under, I think it was an interim order, I can't remember what it was called. My solicitor went to court, they filed for it then I was placed in the mother and baby unit for 12 weeks. I feel like Big Brother was watching me because every movie I made, it's like they kept a whole tab on me. So I didn't know that, when I first went there, that you couldn't turn off the light, so you sleep with the light off, we had to have the lamp on and I remember the staff coming, 'Oh, but you've got to turn on the lamp because we can't see on the camera.' I would say it wasn't a good experience, being in the mother and baby unit. Some of the staff was okay because they had children so they understand what it was like to be a mum. But then you had staff that didn't have children and, to me, you're just reading out of a textbook because you're not getting that whole experience, you're not getting the real experience, you're just reading what it states in a textbook.

So they put me as my mother and baby unit thing came back negative because they said I didn't know my child's cues, I wasn't a good enough parent. But I knew everything about her, I knew what different cries were so I knew when she was crying because she was hungry, I knew she was crying when she was tired and I knew when she was crying when she was wet. But, to the local authority, I'm a risk. When we went to court, they said, 'She was high risk,' I felt I, I'm her mum, why would she be at-risk with me? I'm not doing that a mum doesn't do.

Hannah: And you mentioned, sort of, being in the hospital. So how soon were you in court after your daughter was born? 

Rebecca: So we had the child protective conference, the pre-birth one. The woman said that she would have suffered neglect and I was like, 'But she's in my own house, she's suffering neglect?' I gave birth and then my daughter's dad went to court, it wasn't even that long that we went to court.

[Coming into contact with legal professionals] 

Hannah: Okay. And was that your first contact, then, with, sort of, legal professionals in that legal arena, or had you had any meetings beforehand with solicitors to get any advice? Or was it the first time when you were actually in court? 

Rebecca: It wasn't, my friend's mum said to me that she gave me this solicitor and she said to me, 'Go there and get some advice because you're going to need it.' So I went, I told the woman, she came to court as my solicitor, she came back to me, she said that they were going to put me as an, I think it was an interim order, where I had to be in the mother and baby unit. So she sent me all the paperwork for that and then I was in the mother and baby unit so I didn't go to court until after I left the mother and baby unit. Because they have me another assessment to do, where I lived with this woman and it was like a foster family placement. But she was fine, she had no concerns because, at one point, they wanted her to put a monitor in my room, she said that she didn't feel like that was necessary. She didn't have any issues but, to the local authority, there was an issue. I was at high risk.

Hannah: So, when you attended court and for those first hearings and throughout the proceedings, did you receive the court paperwork to read through? And how did that feel, looking at those documents? 

Rebecca: I got the court paperwork and it was overwhelming because half of the stuff they're writing, I don't understand what they're saying, so it wasn't easy for me to understand. But luckily, I had, like, my partner's family to help me understand certain things. But it wasn't easy.

[Paperwork and explaining terminology] 

Hannah: Did you find, then, that it included, sort of, words and terminology that maybe people weren't-, social workers weren't using when they sat down to talk to you but then when those first words would appear in the court work? 

Rebecca: Yes. They won't say fancy, academic words when they're in front of you, they just talk normally but, when it's on paper, they're writing all these big words that you don't understand. I know you have to write when it's legal stuff academically, but at least write it so parents can understand what you're saying. Because, if we're reading it and we don't understand what you're saying, then that doesn't help us. It didn't help me one bit because I suffer from dyslexia, so it's, kind of, hard for me to understand what you're trying to say.

Hannah: And I think that the paperwork can be, you know, as we know, there's vast reams of it and it can be quite overwhelming to have a look at anyway, you mentioned the dyslexia. Did anyone sit down with you as a professional to go through that paperwork or was anything done differently to help you be able to understand that or access that in a way that helped you? 

Rebecca: Maybe not the local authority but my solicitor, she said, she explained ‘this is what they're saying, I can say on your behalf if it's true or not’ and I'm-, so it was easier for me to understand because she explained it more. She put it in easier terms than the academic wording.

Hannah: And is there anything that, you know, if you were talking to social workers and giving them advice when sharing that paperwork and writing that paperwork, what would be the main advice that you would want them to take on board as they're writing about parents and their children?

Rebecca: I would say you could write one where you've written it academically and then write one that, for parents that don't understand that academic wording, to write it simply so they still have your academic, professional, written part but you have one where the parents understand what you, basically, what you're saying in your paperwork. Because if it's easier, then they won't have to be sitting there trying to figure out what is he or she saying.

Hannah: And did you feel that the paperwork and the assessments reflected you as a person and you as a mother? Did you feel it had the positives and the negatives or-, how did that feel in terms of capturing that overall picture? 

Rebecca: Well, in the mother and baby unit, they were doing these little tasks, like, I've done that but I did that when I had my firstborn. So it wasn't anything that I didn't know how to do. I knew how to change a diaper, I knew how to make a bottle. The social worker would say a positive and then, in two minutes flat, you're given a negative. You don't even let the parent enjoy that one positive you're saying before you come out with your negative. And it's not fair because I know they're the local authority but they're not the one that's going-, making everyone pick every little piece of them as a parent. And it's not fair, you give a positive, keep that positive. Don't even say-, if you want to say a negative, give it a while before, give all the positives first, then give out your negatives. Or you could give out the negative first and then say, 'Oh, but she's done this, she's doing this well and she's doing that well,' don't just jump from, 'She's doing this well,' and then, 'Oh, but she hasn't done this,' you're building that person's confidence just to knock it back down again.

Hannah: Were there any surprises when you saw the court paperwork? Was there anything that that was the first time that that professional view had been put across to you or had the social workers, the local authority been very clear with you what their recommendations were up until that point? 

Rebecca: The social worker had his recommendations. That was fine, it's just the fact that he read a report about my eldest daughter and he just assumed I was that person. He didn't ask me, like, what had happened, how did this happen? Nothing like that, he just assumed I was this person. Because the way he would speak to me like I was a fool because he was speaking to me like I didn't have an education or I couldn't do this. And he was so surprised when, one day, I emailed him, he was like, 'Oh, but you can email me?' Well, I'm very good with the computer, you just didn't know this because you didn't take your time out to get to know me, you just assumed I was this person that you're reading on your paper. And I'm not that. I might not be book smart, I've just got dyslexia so I might not be book smart, but me, like, doing other things, I'm very good at.

[Voicing lived experience] 

Hannah: And so, when you first attended court, then, who was it that helped you prepare for that? Did you know what to expect, walking through those court doors and the set up? And what did people do that was helpful and were there things that maybe weren't done that would've been helpful?

Rebecca: I would say my, even though she was my solicitor in the courtroom but she wasn't my solicitor that sent me all the paperwork, but she told me who was going to be in the courtroom and who was going to say what on whose behalf. So she said the local authority has this solicitor, you have me as your solicitor, your partner has his solicitor, and then you have an advocate for your daughter. So that person will speak up on your daughter's behalf. And then we speak one by one by one. I will speak on your behalf, your daughter's guardian will speak on her behalf, you have nothing to worry about. It's not, like, a criminal court, it's a family court, so it looks different. So she explained that to me and I felt more relieved to know exactly how it was going to look in the room than me just walking in and just being overwhelmed.

Hannah: Yes. Was there anything about court that you weren't expecting that you hadn't been prepared for? 

Rebecca: I didn't know that you couldn't say anything. I know, because I thought it's a family court, you could speak to the judge but I didn't know that you couldn't. It was, kind of, weird that I couldn't say what I wanted to say but I told my solicitor what I wanted to say. She's like, 'You can't address the judge but I can address the judge for you, so whatever you want to tell me then I will.'

Hannah: Yes, I remember feeling quite surprised at that, actually, myself. Of how much of the discussions were also done outside of the actual court room when I first went to court as a newly qualified social worker and expecting far more of it to be discussions between the solicitors and the judge and working things out a bit more together. I was surprised at how much of that happened in those little rooms. So how did that feel, when those discussions were happening outside of the court? Did you feel like you were involved in those, did you understand what was happening in those discussions?

Rebecca: No because they all went in one room and they all started talking, why can't we all just sit down and talk? Why is it, like, why do you keep going back and forth, back and forth? But my solicitor, she's like, 'Don't worry about it, it's just the legal kind of jargon that we're giving it, it's got nothing to do with what the local authority, it's just that he's going to him so he knows exactly what he's saying on their behalf.'

Hannah: So the decisions that were made in those discussions in those small rooms, did you feel that they-, your voice was included in those on behalf of, you know, by your solicitor? Or did any surprises come out of the decisions made? 

Rebecca: My solicitor, when they had the discussion, she said to me she wanted to talk to me and say, she told me what they said. She said, 'You can tell me if it's true or not, because they're going to bring it up in court,' so I was like, 'No, that never happened, but I don't remember that happening.'

Hannah: And I think one of the other things you mentioned to me when we spoke before was about not having, sort of, new recommendations or contradictions by workers and the local authority being clear about what their recommendation was, as well. So not just saying it's up to the judge because the local authority will still be making a recommendation, do you want to say a little bit about that? 

Rebecca: We were in the mother and baby unit for twelve weeks and they had finished where I got my negative, it came out negative. So, because I said to the social worker, 'What happens now?' Because the thing, like, is finished. He's like, 'Well, I don't know.' But it's finished, so at one point they're going to want us to leave because we can't be-, our thing's finished. He was like, 'Well, I don't know, I'll get back to you on it.' So, by the time that happened, rather, he hadn't got back to me but we hadn't gone to court. So I said it to my solicitor, 'He never got back, I don't know what's going to happen,' she's like, 'Well, I think it's negative and our thing is finishing, so I don't know what's going to happen after that.' So she was like, 'What did you say?' I said, 'Well, he said he didn't know and he will get back to me,' so my solicitor brought it up to the judge in court, she was like, 'Well, the local authority hasn't told us what the next step is,' and he's like, 'In what circumstances is that? Because their mother and-, their twelve weeks has finished and they got a negative outcome.' So, what is the next step, if they're going to have to leave the mother and baby unit, where do they go? Because he doesn't-, he recommended that they don't go home, so where are they going to go? So the judge said that they had the rest of this week to figure it out, he's like, 'Because if you do not want them to go home, where are they going to go once the unit has to make them come out?' So he sent it back to court but it wasn't for us to be in court, it was for them to come back into court to explain to the judge where we were going to go.

I think it was, like, a week later after that. He said that we had a foster placement and then the foster placement-, the lady came, he's like, 'You need to pack up your stuff and then wait for the foster lady.' I said, 'I don't, like, get it,' but the thing was he never gave us-, not really any information about this woman. Like, were we were going. And I thought, 'Hold on, you want us to go into someone's house that I don't know, I don't know who they are and I don't know anything about.'

Hannah: Yes, that's a lot of uncertainty and not knowing what's happening. And then, quite quickly, by the sounds of it, moving to that foster placement with your daughter. What would've been helpful then? You know, I presume a bit more notice, of conversations happening before about at the end of the mother and baby unit, this'll be what happens, but what would've been helpful to prepare you for that next placement? 

Rebecca: I feel like you could've done a, like, before we moved, before we leave the mother and baby unit, you could have brought the lady to come and talk to us so we knew, like, 'I know her,' he brought her, she came the same day and she was coming to collect us. So it wasn't, like, to say I hadn't met this woman beforehand to know who she was, but I'm thinking to myself, 'I don't know this woman, I don't know anything about you and you want me to bring my baby into this woman's house that I don't know of?' I know that I'm going to be there but that's not the point, but she was a lovely lady, she said she almost said, 'I don't understand it, how this is supposed, like, how they did this.' They didn't give her much information either, she said, so she was quite-, she just thought it was mum and baby. She didn't know it was mum, baby and dad, she didn't know that.

Hannah: And so, did all three of you go and stay with that foster carer, then? 

Rebecca: Yes. We were in there until the last court proceedings.

[The assessment outcome] 

Hannah: And what was the outcome of those assessments, then, sort of, at the end of that placement, at the end of care proceedings? 

Rebecca: I know the lady's one was, like, she gave me a positive one.  

Hannah: So the outcome of the proceedings was that you and your daughter were able, and was that with your partner as well? 

Rebecca: Yes.  

Hannah: Yes, so that all three of you were able to go back home and live as a family unit. Yes. 

Rebecca: Yes, under the one year supervision order.  

Hannah: And, to reach that decision, then, and to go through all the, sort of, the numerous courts, hearings that are held to make those decisions, did you ever have to give evidence or did you have to watch other people give evidence about your family situation? 

Rebecca: No.  

Hannah: And how did it feel towards the end of the proceedings, then? When you were in those final hearings, did it feel more positive because you were having a positive outcome? Did it still feel a bit really daunting, and how was that? 

Rebecca: Positive because the social worker was, for some strange reason, seemed more positive than he did in the beginning.  

Hannah: What do you think had made that difference? Because you mentioned earlier about him not necessarily taking the time to see the person beyond the paperwork and finding out more about you. So what do you think helped that change? 

[Having real conversations] 

Rebecca: Maybe it's because I told him what I-, I wasn't rude, I just told him what I thought of him. Because he asked me, he was like, 'What do you think of me?' And I was like, 'Well, I find you patronising and this is probably why I can't have this conversation with you when you speak about my daughter, because you just come off as patronising to me, so I can't, like, trust you to say anything.' And I told him, 'I don't trust you from when you spoke about me behind my back and then lied to my face,' so that gave me some distrust with you. And he made it sound like I was losing my mind or something, because he was like, 'I never did that,' and the worst thing about it was I had three people around the table in the meeting that was in the meeting with you. So unless you're going to lie upon them as well and make it sound like that they're telling a lie to me.  

Hannah: Did that conversation change your working relationship, was he able to-, you've said about, sort of, him understanding and not-, telling him not to talk to you in a patronising way, was that conversation helpful? Did it change that relationship in the future? 

Rebecca: I feel like it changed it because we could talk, he could ask me a question and I would give him the answer. Before, when he asked it as, like, it's like my mind would shut off. It's like I'd go into my own world and I wouldn't answer him.  

Hannah: And did you feel that, throughout the decisions made in the, you know, you've mentioned numerous different assessments and we know that there's, again, all the paperwork and the various different assessments that are completed by families, and then there's the social work relationships, the interactions you have. Did you feel that, in all of that work, that your individual needs and culture and identity and personality were captured and understood? 

Rebecca: Maybe at the end, not in the beginning because I did go through a bereavement and no-one asked, no-one really did ask me how I felt about that. Even though I know it was, prior to it, it still did have an impact on me, it was only when I was in the foster placement they asked me how did, like, how do you feel. Even when I had the mother and baby, in the mother and baby unit and they would ask me questions about my mum, I wouldn't talk about it. I could tell them about my childhood, my relationship with my mum, but when it came to asking me about the day she passed away, it was hard for me to even talk about it. I couldn't talk about that.  

Hannah: Yes. So understanding the significant events in your life and how that had impacted you would've been helpful for them to know at the beginning. But, on the same note of understanding and being sympathetic with you that it was difficult to talk about and you needed that time to build those relationships to talk about it. 

Rebecca: The social worker, not the first one, the second one, he was like, 'Maybe you need some counselling, maybe you need a bereavement counsellor where you could, even if you can't tell, like, family members, friends, us, you could talk to somebody that you don't know and maybe that might work.' In the beginning, I'm not going to lie to you, I was very hesitant. I'm thinking, sitting there, 'I don't know this person, I can't tell, like, a stranger my problems,' but gradually, every session, I would say it worked because I got to the point where I could have that, when she asked, like, what happened between the day of your mum's death, I could explain it without crying, without feeling anxious. I could tell her and it was very comforting to know that I could tell somebody else my problems.  

Hannah: So that had been quite a positive recommendation by the social worker, then.  

Rebecca: The recommendation and was so helpful.  

[After the proceedings had ended] 

Hannah: And you've said that the proceedings and then with the supervision order, you and your partner are able to care for your daughter at home. So what happened after the proceedings had ended? 

Rebecca: Well we would have meetings, like, we would come together and have meetings at my house, the social worker I had wasn't my social worker anymore, he left. The social worker I got was his manager, he became my social worker. So he said, 'You'll have visits where I will come unannounced,' I was fine with that because I don't have anything to hide. Everything was in its place, I did a parenting course, it was called Strengthening Family and Communities, I passed it with flying colours.  

Hannah: So, like, would you say that course was helpful, then, and the things that were put in place in the supervision order were helpful for you? 

Rebecca: Yes, and I went through an ordeal through the supervision order and I was proper, how can I put it, I was proper nervous and anxious because I was thinking, 'Hold on, does this mean that we're going to go back to court?' Because I was so terrified, I was terrified but my social worker made me-, he was like, 'No, you've done every step that you needed to take.' Because I suffered a domestic violence ordeal during the one year supervision order from my daughter's dad. And I was so nervous, when it happened I phoned my social worker, I said, 'Can I talk to you about something?' He's like, 'You can talk to me,' but I don't want to talk to him. I said to him I didn't want to him over the phone. So he was like, 'I will make an appointment with you,' and it was literally the next, the same day I called was the next day he made the appointment with me. I came in, I explained to him that there was an altercation between me and daughter's dad. My daughter wasn't there, she was with her grandparents but he's, like, so he wrote it down on paper, at that timeline, there was a video that I had made because my ex-partner kept on following me around the house. So I had made the video where I was anxious, so I showed him that. He said to me, so it doesn't escalate and just in case he wants to-, he tries to come back, I need you to call the police and make a report on it. So I made the report, which I did, they came out, they took a video of the video that I made, he said, he's like, 'What's your worry?' I said that I feel like we're going to go back to court. He's like, 'We're not going to go back to court, what you've done, you taken the right steps, the first thing you had done was you phoned me and you told me about it. The second is that I'm telling you, I know it might be harsh but you need to make a police report so, if he does come back and he makes a scene, when you do call the police out, you've already got the report to state why you're calling out the police.'  

He did come back, he said to me he was going to keep… because my one year supervision order will have finished in August, he said that he's going to extend it, he's like, 'I'm not extending it because you're doing anything wrong, I'm extending it just in case you need help for your daughter's dad to see her. I can make contact arrangements that way so you don't have to see him and he doesn't have to be in your personal space.' And I was so surprised because some social workers might not… I might not have got that same reaction.  

Hannah: And were you in agreement of that, then? Did you feel that that was a good thing to happen, for the supervision order to be extended or did that make you worried? 

Rebecca: No, when he explained why, in the beginning, when he said, 'I want to extend it,' and I was, like, he's like, 'Do not worry, I'm going to explain.' He explained why and I felt fine and I had my ex-partner's family's support because they didn't condone his behaviour.  

Hannah: So having the social worker be very clear with you and explain the next steps and why that was happening was really helpful for you then to understand that process. Yes. 

Rebecca: And he said you haven't done anything wrong, you've done the right thing. So he did ask me a question and, when he asked me, I was, kind of, hesitant because I felt like, 'Hold it, does this make us go back to court?' So he asked me was this the first time that it had happened and I got hesitant because I was, like, no. It wasn't, and he was, like, 'So when did this happen?' And I explained, I said it happened when we were in the foster placement and he was so surprised. He was like, 'But why didn't you say anything?' He wasn't my social worker at the time but I was like, 'You lot said that, for me to have her, I needed him to be there so I was just thinking about-, I just want my daughter,' I don't want to keep fighting, so I wanted to go home with her. He's like, 'But you could've told us that, you could've said something,' I said, 'I don't know if it would've made a difference then if I had said something then, or would it have made it worse?' He's like, 'But you should've said something because we could've-, you could've done it on your own, in that case.' But I didn't know that, that's what they said, they needed him to be there.  

Hannah: What do you think it was, then, that supported you in that shift, to feel comfortable and able to be open with the social worker and make that call, which was a really big thing to do. You know, and being worried about the consequences to say, 'I need to tell you what's happened.' What do you think was helpful to get you to that point and that relationship with your social worker? 

Rebecca: It wasn't the same social worker and this social worker, he saw me as a person, just he got to know me as a person. Obviously, I'm one of his caseload, but he never saw me as that. He saw me as a human being, so it was easy for me to have that conversation with and, prior to that, I had already had spoken to him beforehand with my eldest, so it was-, I knew who he was already, so it was more easy for me to, like, have that conversation.  

Hannah: So having that relationship and understanding of each other was really helpful for you. 

Rebecca: It was really helpful. Even after, like, even when he down closed my case and everything, he was still helpful because he even introduced me to the whole thing of this parent advocacy thing. He's like, because they said that have you got any, like, old clients or clients that would be interested in that? And I've done quite a lot with the whole parent advocacy thing. And it's because he put me forward to it.  

Hannah: So having that support, then, after proceedings sounds like it was a really helpful thing for you.  

Rebecca: It was really helpful.  

Hannah: Is there anything that wasn't done after proceedings that you would've found helpful? Well, that was different to after, sort of, involvement with your first daughter.  

Rebecca: With my first daughter, I never had court proceedings but I felt like they could have done, when I had my oldest, I feel like they could've done more. Because, when it came to me, because my oldest daughter is very difficult to get on with, so I feel like I could've done with more help in that situation. I feel like, apart from the, sort of, first social worker, the other two that I had was fine.  

Hannah: So what's the main piece of advice that you would want to give to a social worker that may be attending court for the first time or working with a family in court for the first time, or maybe that's really experienced, what are the main messages that you think they need to understand about a parent experience in the family court? 

Rebecca: Be transparent, don't see people as, 'Oh yes, that's my case, whatever,' get to know them, understand why they're in that situation, because everyone's situation is very different. It's not like-, some people might not intentionally get themselves into that situation, so get to know them. Understand their, like, get to know their background and ask them what happened to get you here. Don't just feel like, 'Oh, they're here because they're being neglectful or they're this.' Make them feel comfortable to get to know you so it doesn't feel so overwhelming when-, because when you think of a social worker, all people think is, 'Oh, they're coming to take your child away from them,' that's the stereotype of social worker. I know of being in the sector in that situation, you're not just here to take away our children, you're here to help but some-, you're not going to get that because some of you don't know how to show that in a way for us not to feel like you're just coming to take our kid away from us.  

Hannah: And I think the other thing, which I don't think we've captured but I think was really quite powerful when you said to me about making sure that the local authority and the social worker are clear about what their recommendation is and not just saying, 'It's up to the judge.' Because it is up to the judge but the local authority will have a view, so do you want to just say something about that? 

Rebecca: I feel like you should plot out your key points, so you tell, whatever, the family, 'Oh, my concern is, point, point, point,' whatever it is, and then you can say, 'This is my recommendation to the judge, point, point, point.' So they understand what your concerns are but they also know what you're recommending to the judge. Don't tell them it's, 'Oh, it's up to the judge,' because you're the one that has to file back to the judge, so I really do get it if the judge is last, final say, but at least explain to the parents what your concern is. What the positive is, so what you're not mainly concerned on, so they understand, so you can be concerned about certain things and not other things. And then make it quite clear to them that your recommendation is to the court is, even if you don't write it in simple form, explain it to them in simple form so they understand.  

Hannah: Yes, it comes back to that message which I think you've explained really well about transparency, about being really clear in your written work but also having those conversations beforehand. And I think that is so important for social workers to do because, as you've said, that helps to build those relationships and help you reach that point where you can pick up the phone and say, 'I need to tell you something and I need your support.' So I think that's a really powerful message, thank you. Did you have any assessments of family members completed, were, what we call kinship care, were family members assessed as, sort of, potential carers for your daughter?  

Rebecca: They did it for a special guardianship, so it was my cousin, my friend and my daughter's grandparents.  

Hannah: And did you understand why those assessments were being completed? I presume that was at the same time as your own and how did those assessments happening feel for both-, for you and for those family members? 

Rebecca: Well, I understood it because they said, if you couldn’t have your child, who could have her? So I said my cousin because my cousin is a mum, but she felt uncomfortable because, to her, she was like, she kept on telling them, 'My cousin won't need me, she's got this, she's a mum, she knows what she's doing.' She'd done the whole thing but she was like, 'At the end of the day, my cousin's got this.' Where my friend now was, kind of, she was sneaky about it. Because she said things that I was, kind of, shocked for, thinking, 'Why would you say that?' Because I know, if the shoe was on the other foot, I would never do that because, if you're my friend and then you need my help, I'm going to help you in any way that I can. But I wouldn't make you sound like you are a bad parent. And that's what she had done, she made me sound like I was a bad parent.  

Hannah: And were you involved at all in those assessments of the family members to be able to, maybe, give your views and talk about your relationships? So was that something that felt like it was done quite separately? 

Rebecca: No, the social worker asked me, when he asked about the special guardianship, he said, 'Who were you going to pick?' And he asked me why did I want to pick them and what was the relationship? I said, 'That's my cousin and we have a good relationship,' and I explained to them that she was my daughter's godmother, even thought he was my cousin, she was still my children's godmother. And he's like, 'What about your friend?' I said, 'Well, me and her have been friends for nearly, over nineteen years and she was my youngest daughter's godmother,' so I'm thinking I don't put that title there for no reason and, when we're looking back now on the report, it was, like, do I even know you? Because what you see here, like, face-to-face is not what you're writing in that report because you're like, 'Yes, I've got your back, don't worry, any help you need, I've got you,' but then you're a writing a report that tarnishes me as a parent, how is that you being a friend and having my back?  

Hannah: And did that affect your friendship, then, and how she could then support you?  

Rebecca: It affected my friendship. I would say to you I can't trust her in any shape or form.  

Hannah: Is there anything that you think could've been done differently that might have helped that situation? You mentioned that you didn't think that your friend was aware that you were going to maybe see what was being said, is there anything that maybe would've made it a different outcome? 

Rebecca: I don't think, even if she did or didn't know that I was going to see that report, I feel like it would've been the same outcome. And I don't understand why.  

Hannah: And just, sort of, generally on the note, then, of assessing family and friends, carers, is there anything else that you'd want to say or any sort of advice, sort of, things that worked well or could've been done differently in your situation? 

Rebecca: No, because the local authority stated when they were going to see each person.  

Hannah: So you were happy for those assessments to be completed because it was people that you'd put forward that it was helpful for you to understand what was happening and why they were being assessed and when that was happening. 

Rebecca: Yes, the only thing that I would say to you that I didn't like is when the social worker said he wanted a photo of me, my partner and my daughter. And I was like, 'Why do you want a photo?' He's like, 'Well, if you don't get your daughter and she's put up for adoption,' it threw me off and I was, like, 'No offence to you but I'm not giving you a picture,' I refused with my whole heart not to give him a picture. Then he was like, 'Well, I might as well just ask him,' so he went and asked him and he got the same answer.  

Hannah: Was that your worry, then, that that photo might be used as a, almost as a tool to be able to remove her from you rather than it being something that was helpful? 

Rebecca: Yes, it threw me because I've never been through that and it was, like, it was so overwhelming.  

Hannah: It's really helpful, as a social worker, for me to hear that perspective because I've often liked that part about a special guardianship assessment because, for me as a social worker, as well, I do some independent work and I don't… it means that I'm working more with the carer that I'm assessing. And it really helps bring those children to life in the assessment and put those faces to names and make it feel a bit more real. But, like I said, it is a surprise to a lot of families when you suddenly say, 'Can I have a photo of you?' When that's not been done, the initial social work evidence never asks for a photo. So it's quite a surprise for families to suddenly be asked that. And I can complete understand why that would be a cause of anxiety, so I think that's really powerful for social workers to understand, as well. I think it comes back to that importance of clear conversations, as well, because in conversations I've had with other professionals and judges, they found it a really nice thing, to be able to say, 'Actually, I've got a picture of the child that I'm talking about and I'm making decisions about.' And the parents, even though they're in court, it can make it more human and that's a really positive aspect of having those photos. But it sounds like that side of that conversation wasn't held with you and that might have helped reassure you a little bit about why that had been asked for.  

Rebecca: He didn't say that, he used the word adoption and that's why he didn't get the photo. Because he never mentioned, 'Oh, so when we're in court and we're showing, we can say that this is the person that we're talking about,' he never did that. If he had done that, maybe I would've given him a photo, I don't know about her dad but maybe I would've given him a photo.  

[Advice for other parents] 

Hannah: So my last question is, we've spoken about what advice you'd give a social worker but what advice would you give another parent that's maybe entering proceedings or within family court proceedings? 

Rebecca: I would say be yourself. If you've made any mistakes then own your mistakes. No-one is perfect, everyone makes a mistake. I know it's hard to say, 'Oh, but I've made this mistake and I made that mistake,' but you owning your mistake, then, it makes the social worker understand that you understand why you're here. If you don't take accountability for your actions then they just feel like you don't care. So I would say to the parent take accountability so they understand that, 'Well, she understands that she knows why she's here, she's willing to make an improvement on whatever she feels like she cannot do or she's struggling with,' I know the social workers, they're here to help you so don't be so hard on them. Because I know a lot of us parents are really wanting to be hard on you social workers but I feel like you lot are not all that bad.  

Hannah: That's a really lovely point for you to make and I think, you know, it's been really helpful talking today. And I have to say, it's been really powerful, for me as a social worker, to be able to have that, sort of, neutral conversation with a parent and reflect on my practice and the practice of others. Because I think it's really important that, you know, you're saying not all social workers are bad but we do need to really think about how we work with families and how we build those relationships and have that transparency and support you through those difficult processes. So I think, you know, the experiences and your story is really powerful so I just want to thank you for sharing it with us and for your time today. 

Rebecca: You're welcome.  

[Outro] 

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