[Introduction] 

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence-informed practice with children and families, young people and adults.  

Phil: Welcome to the Research in Practice podcast, where conversation by conversation we aim to champion evidence-informed practice in children's, families and adult services. I'm Phil, your host today, and in this episode we'll be taking a look at youth violence through a public health lens, exploring what that really means in practice. I'm joined today by Ali Fraser, criminologist, and our very own Racquel Veith, who's a Senior Innovation and Development Lead here at Research in Practice. We're going to talk about how we can work together across services, listen to young people's voices, and build safer, more hopeful communities. We'll also be asking, what keeps us optimistic about change? And how we can carry that hope forward in our work with young people. So, today, as I said, I'm joined by Ali Fraser. He's developed, amongst other things, a series called Young Warriors, which is a six-part podcast which I've been lucky enough to listen to, where he's explored first-hand youth-led change, youth culture, in six UK cities, well, spanning from Dundee to Cardiff. Now, before we speak to Ali about his work, we'll have a listen to the trailer for the series, just to set up the context a little bit. 

[Young Warriors Trailer] 

'My name is Ali Fraser. I've spent the last twenty years of my life studying why young people get involved in violence. I cut my teeth in my home city of Glasgow, then travelled to Chicago, Hong Kong, Shanghai and London in search of answers. I started thinking I knew it all, but lately I've been travelling the country and getting schooled myself. Our new series, Young Warriors, is a journey through the healing power of rap lyrics, communities built on food, unlikely stories about granny-knitted gang jumpers, and much, much more.'

'Well, that, that slaps. That's probably one of the best ones [talking over each other]. That's probably one of the best ones I've... [talking over each other 02.19].'

'It's not about forcing a decision on them, it's more about, like, you have a right to create your own journey, and you can change the course of your path and things.'

'When I was younger and, you know, I was getting in trouble with the police, I was looked at as just a criminal, so at that point it was like, "Well, if I'm just a criminal, I guess I'll just act like one."'

'It shows what good can be done with knives, and when they're handed in.'

'Most of these kids, well, our age, they're outside with gangs, using knives and guns. That's not normal.'

'The youth will be the ones who will be out there teaching the next generation, and they do have lessons that they can teach people now. Innovation will come from them.'

'This is Young Warriors.' 'This-,' 'Young Warriors-,' 'Is Young Warriors.' 'You're listening to-,' 'Young Warriors-,' 'Young Warriors.' 'This is Young Warriors.'

'Listen wherever you get your podcasts.'

[The Young Warriors podcast and the role of lived experience] 

Phil: So, that was the trailer for Young Warriors, and as I said, I really have enjoyed listening to that. I've taken it out when I've been out running, trying to keep fit, and it's made a great change to me compared to the usual doom-laden political shows I often have in my ear as I've trudging about Devon. It's been really genuinely refreshing to, sort of, put young people front and centre. Challenging stories, positive stories, real stories, and Ali says in part of it, reflecting back on the six episodes, that it's time to flip the script, and I think that's really important to locate young people in the heart of what we're discussing today. So, first question really, Ali, what led you to record the podcast? Was there a personal motivation, or a moment that made you think, 'I need to make a podcast about these stories with young people'? 

Ali: Thanks for that, Phil, and thanks for playing those clips. Like, honestly, sitting here listening to that, it just brings back all the faces, and people and stories that I was fortunate enough to gather over the year-long process of making, and producing and recording the podcast, as you said, in cities all over the UK, and that was a beautiful montage. It was lovely to hear about your own experience, like, of listening to the podcast. I always thought about it as the, kind of, beginning of a conversation, but a kind of loop that would only be closed when people actually listened to it and made sense of it, and thanks to you for listening to the whole lot, it's deeply appreciated. Was there a moment that made me think? I don't know if there was one moment, but I guess it was a dawning realisation over twenty years now, like, working in the space of violence involving young people, young people in conflict with the law, a slow dawn in realisation that there was a mismatch between the research knowledge that we gather in universities, and research and policy communities, and the way that young people are often depicted in the media, and in politics and in public debate.

On one hand, the research talked about young people's structural exclusion, their marginalisation, but the public debate was really all about issues like gangs, knife crime, county lines, and I just felt like there was a gap that was more like a chasm between these two different poles. So, I suppose I've been on a mission now for the last seven or eight years to try to bridge the gap between these two divides, trying to find that space between academic and public debate, and join the dots between the two. I think podcasting is a really open platform. It's a way I think of reaching our hand to people in our audiences that might be interested in these issues - but bringing research into dialogue, but not in a way that has all the answers. It's a kind of proffer, it's an invitation, it's a, 'Here's what we've found. Does this make sense to you?' There's something about the podcast format that lends itself to storytelling, it lends itself to the plurality of voices that we just heard in the clip there, that I think is totally unique and totally different from the forms of academic report-writing or publication that we're used to, whereby young people's voices become disembodied as quotes on pages, rather than, kind of, vibrant and exciting voices and accents, like you heard in the clip there.

Phil: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I can only concur with that. I don't want to make it just a promotion for your podcast of course, but it is fantastic, and that plurality you talk about, and the vibrancy of the youth voices from all over the country, it's genuinely exciting, and it is genuinely challenging and thought-provoking. Like you say, it's the purpose of podcasts, because it gets you talking, because I've been talking to my wife about it and saying, 'Oh, here's this,' and realising how old I've got, and realising the circumstances that young people across the country, how different that is from when I was young. That's very natural of course. In one of the podcasts, you talk about lessons people can learn from young people. In fact, that's very much at the heart of all of the episodes. What do you think then are the lessons or approaches that people in direct practice can apply to their day-to-day work to help foster positivity and promote agency within young people? 

Ali: Yes, that's a great question. I mean, before answering that, I might just say a little bit more about the podcast, and as I say, it's really lovely to hear your positive experience of it, but I have to give thanks really, not only to the fantastic youth organisations involved and the young people that participated, but also to the people that made the podcast sound as good as it did. For those that haven't listened to it, there's often atmosphere in the recording, so the producer recorded background noise, doors opening and closing, little flashes of music, little aside conversations. So, with each conversation you, kind of, can picture yourself hopefully in the room, in the space, and really put yourself in the shoes of the young people, that's the intention. There's also a beautiful score that you just heard a little sizzle of there that I think, kind of, heightens it.

Phil: Yes. 

[The importance of understanding young people’s lives in context] 

Ali: I guess there were also, like, little bits from young people. So, there is one where a young woman raps her life story to a musical backdrop that still to this day, like, raises the hairs on the back of my neck. In terms of how lessons from the podcast can inform practice, I guess I'm not going to sit here and tell people how to do their job. I mean, I was totally blown away by the passion, the energy, the enthusiasm of the practitioners that I met in making the podcast, often for very little thanks, in some cases for no reward whatsoever, they were doing it on a purely voluntary basis. I'm just completely flabbergasted with the depth of the commitment, and the commitment to change in young people's lives and the communities that they were part of. So, as I say, I wouldn't want to tell people how to do their jobs, but perhaps in listening to the podcast people might find themselves, might find young people that they work with, there might be things that resonate with them, that chime with them.

Because, as you say, there are stories of hope written all the way through it, it's about young people who are not only transforming their own lives but they're being given a platform to transform the communities that they're part of, to transform the systems that are excluding them and keeping them on the outs. I hope perhaps in what might feel like a bleak environment, where there's very little hope and very little optimism, what I hope is that in listening to the podcast people will see and feel that there can be these little fragile candles of hope burning in cities across the United Kingdom, and that that will hopefully give them the energy, and enthusiasm and resolve, to keep doing what they're doing. Because that's where the work happens - it happens in front-line practice, it doesn't happen in university offices or policy suites, it happens on the front line, and I think that's really what I wanted to put front and centre in Young Warriors.

Phil: Yes, and that really comes across. Well, Racquel, I think it's time that we brought you in. Racquel, you and Ali are actually probably only a stone's throw away from each other. It's funny, I'm here in Devon and you are both up in Glasgow, is that right? 

Racquel: That is, yes, literally neighbours, right around the corner from each other. Been to mutual children's birthday parties with each other as well.

Ali: We first made the connection with Research in Practice in a kid's play-park in the South Side of Glasgow.

Racquel: Yes.

Phil: It was meant to be. So, Racquel, I know that you've been working on a project tackling child exploitation practice, so really on respecting the voice, and experience and expertise of children and young people. So, this, kind of, chimes in with a lot that Alistair was just talking about really. I wonder if you could talk your thoughts around this, and some of the work that you've been doing? 

Racquel: Sure. I think, yes, it might be helpful to give a really brief high-level background on Tackling Child Exploitation Support Programme, so we call that TCE because it's a mouthful to say otherwise. Yes, TCE was a DfE [Department for Education]-funded programme that ran over four years, but our last year, which ended in 2023, we developed a set of practice principles. They were being shaped by practice, wisdom and expertise that sits across different sectors and professionals, and well as the lived experienced of children and young people and parents and carers. So, the practice principles themselves have also been shaped by those realities that children and young people live day to day, who have faced these types of harms. The principles themselves, their aim isn't really to tell people what to do, kind of, on the back of what you were saying there, Ali. We weren't here with the principles trying to tell people what to do, we see the principles as helping them think about how they do that though. So, I like to call it the magic in the middle, the principles are the magic in the middle. You know, we're not just offering a support, or an intervention, or this kind of targeted offer here.

Those things are important. Where we see the greatest impact is how local areas do that though, and the principles offer a framework for partnerships and those in direct practice to think about how they do what they do, the magic in the middle. Alongside the principles as well, we've developed a number of different resources and tools, and those were co-created and co-developed alongside children and young people. So, there are eight practice principles, and for every principle there's a first-person statement that children and young people wrote themselves to say, 'This is what it looks like for me. This is what good practice looks like for me. I would know somebody was working with me in a strengths-based relational way by these things. These are the indicators to us.' Alongside that, they've also produced some reflective practice tools, some artwork and digital pieces, representing what the principles mean to them. We also have a couple of audio recordings which young people-, it's just their voices, but giving advice to professionals, how they want to be worked with, and some really powerful examples in there. And it made me reflect actually some of the things we heard through consultation, Ali, kind of chimed with some of the things you said, but also in that clip of Young Warriors, some resonance there just reminded me that a lot of this is just about coming back to basics. It's being human, right?

So, the principles, how we like to describe them, they're a compass and not a map, so they are meant to help partnerships and professionals navigate that complexity. This is a really complex area, and this is what we're hoping is a bit of a framework and some guidance in how to navigate that complexity together, by really focusing on the behaviours, the culture, the relationships that take place within organisations, within teams and across partnerships. A big part of that is children and young people having their voices heard, and shaping the support that they receive.

Phil: Yes, lovely. 

Racquel: Did I answer your question?

[A public health approach to youth violence] 

Phil: It does, yes. You know, it speaks to that thing that you mentioned about being human, starting there, because we know how multifaceted and immensely complicated this whole subject is, but something about, what do they say in modern parlance? Touching grass, I suppose, and starting with the people-, I am no expert, I am just the host here, but sometimes those things make sense, and they make sense to me, what you just said, and in Ali's podcast. We are talking today about a public health approach to youth violence, and so we know the causes of violence are deep-rooted, they're complex, they cross multiple areas of people's lives, and also they cross a vast remit of different organisations and professionals. So, one of the things that again, coming back to the podcast, I was struck by this analogy, Ali, that you made in one of the episodes, where you talk about the cholera epidemic. I don't know if you remember this, but essentially back in the Nineteenth Century in London, everyone was like, 'It smells really bad here,' or, 'It must be the smell. It's the smell that's making everybody ill.'

Then, of course it was John Snow, he was a physician, who demonstrated that the issue was the flow of water, not the bad air in the city. So, this, kind of, struck me as an important lesson of how evidence is found through, sort of, curiosity, and how that is used then to shape practical change, because that's somebody responding, being curious enough to think, 'Well, no, this isn't what everybody thinks it is. I'm going to explore something else.' In another of your episodes, you're down in Cardiff, Ali, and you're exploring some of the different approaches to violence reduction, and one of those is PAC, the Peer Action Collective. I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what you found in the communities there, about the notion of allyship and trusted adults for example, that kind of thing? It doesn't have to be from Cardiff. I mean, you went to so many different places. 

Ali: Yes, thanks, Phil. Yes, they were all, like, wonderful, and unique and spontaneous experiences in their own right, but Cardiff was quite special, in that I'd spent six-and-a-half hours on the train down from Glasgow, and I was due to be meeting a consultant surgeon straight off the train to carry out an interview with him. He was a very busy individual, rightly so. He'd arranged to meet me in an emergency vehicle, and we were just going to sit in the car park and do the interview, but after about five minutes or so an emergency call came in and he asked, 'Is it okay if I get this?' I was like, 'Yes, crack on, mate.' Before I knew it, we were flying through Cardiff, responding to this emergency call. Sitting at the back, my heart was beating out my chest. The cars were parting before us like Moses parting the Red Sea, and I was wondering what on earth I was doing. I was like, 'I've just been in the city for five minute and here I am, tearing across the city.' We did do the interview, but in the aftermath of him attending to that case, and I suppose it was the public health approach in action. That was trying to intervene as early as possible, in this context of harm or injury, pre-hospital, in order to prevent further harm. This guy that I interviewed, he talked about the public health approach as the Cardiff Model.

So, that was not just intervening on the streets, but trying to prevent violence in the city before it happened, through developing intelligence systems and reporting mechanisms that prevented the, kind of, chain of events that would ultimately lead to violence. It's been really successful and repeated all over the world, but I think what you're talking about was the Pure Action Collective, PAC Cymru, and they also adopted the public health approach to violence reduction but in quite a different way, but one that felt, kind of, familiarly connected to that experience in the emergency vehicle. This was a diverse group of young people that had different experiences of crime, violence and victimisation. Some were care experienced, some were justice experienced, some had been the victims of violence and bullying, but they'd come together in PAC Cymru and been trained in research methods and research skills, and they would then go out and interview their peers about their experiences of violence basically. The point of it being not research for research's sake, quite the reverse, they would then create these social impact work strands or work-streams, where they would turn what they found into engaging workshops for other young people, and then some kind of concrete output. One of the more high-profile examples was they created this document called A Wales Without Violence, that some of the PAC then presented in front of the Senedd, the Welsh parliament. It was really, like, tremendous to see the, sort of, energetic, enthusiastic, committed, youth-led voice, committed to changing the systems and structures that excluded them.

Within that I heard some tremendous stories of personal transformation, like, you heard a little quote from Molly talking about when she felt like she was labelled as a criminal and put in a box, and if she was referred to in that way she would just think, 'Oh, if that's what you want to call me, that's what I'll be.' And she then told the story of how she went through the PAC programme she's now in her second year of university. So, there's a personal story of transformation there, but I think just as important is the systemic transformation that she and others from PAC were at the leading edge of, so they're changing themselves, but they're also trying to change the systems that created their negative experiences in the first place. Maybe just one final point, just to come back to practice, like, the young woman, Steph, who was the leader of PAC Cymru, that I interviewed for the podcast, was still a young woman herself, I think in her mid-twenties, and had been working there for five or six years, and she reflected on that, that she was still a young woman herself, but she had become a trusted adult for so many other young people, and she carried that very close to her heart. Her enthusiasm and her commitment were totally infectious, and you could see it, not only in the way that she talked, and the way she carried herself, but in the strength and vitality of her organisation, and the young people that came through the doors, kind of, putting their head round the door and saying hello, and asking what was going on. You could really feel it, and I guess maybe that's what a public health approach feels like, it's a, kind of, safe space, it's a safe environment that people just feel included and supported by.

Phil: Yes, that's what I was getting… 

Ali: That's the kind of thing that Raquel was talking about when she was talking about good practice, that is perhaps what good practice looks like for those young people.

Phil: I wonder if it's synonymous with community, you know, and that community is public health, good community, and trusted adults working, and that sense of collective, together. I think that's really important, and that does, as you say Ali, it chimes with what you were talking about, Racquel, and the TCE, and a question for you then. One of the common themes across the principles is around, sort of, collaboration, and reaching across boundaries and potential silos, what do you think effective practice looks like from your point of view, with the work that you've done? 

Racquel: Yes, so I've had the great privilege of working on lots of different projects, and working closely with different local safeguarding partnerships across the country. So, I've been able to be really inspired by, and hear from lots of areas who are doing some innovative, creative, kind of boundary-pushing things, but also really trying to think about how they embed collaboration, coordination between themselves, but also how are they bringing children and young people to the table in ways that move beyond just consultation, but really around that kind of co-production and participation. So, you know, I think there's something in there that can feel really unnerving to partnerships, because there's a sense of letting go of a bit of control in what happens with a young person if they also are exerting a bit of agency and voice, and shaping what happens for them. I think often-times it can feel, sometimes that it's for heads, ‘I need to protect these children and young people because we have safeguarding role here, and what does that mean then for the level of participation for children and young people in these spaces?’ So, you know, I think where we've seen this done really well in local areas is where they hold on to that thread within the principles that says that participation is protection – doing… that is protection, that is in and of itself an intervention, that is good practice. Collaboration is much more than just meetings and structures, those are important, kind of, spaces and mechanisms, but it's also about having a shared understanding across partners, with children and young people a shared ownership, breaking down those silos, and also about sharing power.

I think that's really important, and I think where we've seen this done really well in local areas is where they have brought in their view of who is a partner when it comes to safeguarding, so really bringing in, like, parents and carers and families, the community, as well to help come alongside them. Having a shared story of what is driving violence locally, and one area I thought did something really interesting, that I really liked, they were looking at their data, they were looking at patterns and trends, but they weren't just using it as evaluative, you know, to review their performance, that has a space, but they were also using it as a means to explore things more deeply, to promote curiosity across the partnership, but they did that alongside storytelling. So, they brought children and young people's narratives in to making sense of the data, and I think that has the power to (1) really provide a more robust, clearer picture of what the local context looks like for communities, and children and young people, but I think it has this other benefit of also validating the data we collect, not relying entirely on the data we collect to drive decision making. That we are making sure that communities, families, children and young people are also shaping the decisions we're making by looking at them side by side, and, 'What does this tell us? What story are we hearing as a result of that?' So, yes, I think collaboration for us, in terms of the practice principles, partnerships thrive when they're focusing on relationships, with each other, with communities, and with young people, and while governance matters, obviously of course, it's that relational infrastructure that sustains the public health approach. That's also what builds hope, engagement, and I think empowers people to be invested in their local communities as well.

[What can keep us hopeful] 

Phil: Oh, I'm glad you talked about hope there, because as we come to a close on this brief, but lovely conversation I've had with both of you, because the subject matter is challenging, and it's hard, and it's complicated, and you will know better than me the struggles, I wonder what keeps you hopeful in the work that you've done, or in the reflections on the work that you're doing? Alistair, for example, you've met so many inspiring young people, and they're doing their utmost to change the system, and the ways that we work, do you feel optimistic about our ability to tackle youth violence collectively? I guess you must do, otherwise you would have walked away, but what one thing can professionals do to help empower young people, or what can they do to, sort of, get out of the way to let them empower themselves?

Ali: Yes, I mean, I guess you look around the world, and the society we live in today, it's difficult to feel entirely hopeful and optimistic, it's a sometimes relentlessly bleak picture that you see in the world around us, and particularly when you work in the space of violence involving young people. There's too many lives lost to violence, both those directly affected, but also those left behind, and it has a really significant, and traumatising ripple effect on whole communities, and societies, so it is difficult to feel optimistic. But, like, when I travelled round the country and met the people at the frontline, the youth workers, the community practitioners, the young people themselves that are engaged in these issues day to day, there is hope. There are these little candles of hope burning in local community halls, and music studios, and in local libraries in cities all over the country, and that is people working together and trying to pass it on. I mean, I actually asked that question to quite a lot of the people that I interviewed for the podcast, like, 'What keeps you hopeful?' And one of them really sticks with me, that was Karen McCluskey who was one of the original directors of the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit, I asked her what keeps her hopeful, and she talked about pied pipers - she talked about people who had been helped, like, who had been supported to change their lives, but then went back to the frontline and helped other people. I met so many of them all the way though the making of the podcast, people that had had their lives changed, and then they wanted to pass it on, and I think there's definitely hope in that. There's hope in that, sort of, sense of resilience, and transformation, and empowerment.

I mean, there's a sort of separate but connected… like, I've just spent the last four years leading a big project all about violence reduction in the UK, so about violence reduction in Scotland, and how that's transferred through Violence Reduction Units to England and Wales. One of the big findings we found about what worked in Scotland was what we called the growing chorus - that there was, kind of, change in the public debate about young people involved in violence, that happened slowly, but over a ten or fifteen year period we started to hear, instead of, 'Antisocial behaviour,' you started hearing about, 'Trauma informed practice,' for example. That didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen because of any one organisation, it happened as a result of a whole lot of people recognising the call, and stepping forward and adding their voice to the mix, and so, like, when you start to think about hope not just in isolation, of all these individual little candles, but in terms of a movement, in terms of a growth of a movement, people standing up and hearing other people call and adding their own voice, that sounds to me like the kind of relational infrastructure that Racquel was talking about. So, it's not just between individuals, but it's between individuals positioned across different sectors, agencies, communities, geographies, young people and youth workers alike, like, putting their collective shoulder to the wheel, I think that is how change can happen. I mean, I do think there is a time when practitioners needs to get out the way, and researchers need to get out the way, we don't have all the answers. We need to ideally create platforms for young people to be the seeds and agents of the change themselves, but that doesn't mean abdicating responsibility, that's what I mean by putting the collective shoulder to the wheel. You need to be walking alongside young people, like, shoulder to shoulder, rather than leading or following.

Phil: Yes, which speaks to, sort of, breaking out of silos, and the way that communities can work collaboratively, experts and the people that are living the life as well, you know, and yes, we really got a sense of that in the podcast. It did speak to me of hope, the little candles analogy that you used, and that's important that is, because that's how we build I think. So, listening to that Racquel, what legacy has TCE left, and how can we collectively build on it, sort of, moving forwards? What would you like to see happening in the future? 

Racquel: Yes, a lot of what you were saying there, Ali, really resonated, because the work I do is a lot more working with partners, and partnerships, than children and young people, but certainly I think some of the hope I get from the work I do is really seeing that commitment, and that passion and that care that people bring to their job every single day. So, yes, what I hope the legacy really of the practice principles is, is being one of those voices in that chorus, helping to shift and change the narrative, and the conversation, you know, I think at some stage we probably have been somewhere where it was, 'What's wrong with this child?' And really focusing and honing in on an individual child, or a group of children and young people, or their presenting quote, unquote, 'behaviours,' but really I'm hoping that the practice principles are moving us away from something like that, to going, 'What's happening in this context? What's going on for these children and young people? What's going on in our community?' And how do we look and see all of that child and young person, all of the community, what are the strengths that exist there? So, I've seen a lot of local areas who are doing just that, and who see the principles as a framework, and a means by which they can garner some collective buy-in from wider partners as well. So, you know, we've seen them, for example being used in Violence Reduction Units, we've seen the principles being used in safeguarding partnerships, as part of their local safeguarding reviews, we've seen them being used in schools in their wellbeing strategies. We see them being used as just personal reflective tools for those who are in direct line.

So, I see the principles really being able to have a bit of influence across the different levels and layers within the system, and as a means to, kind of, bring people together, and how they're going to do this collectively in the partnership, and with communities, with families, with children and young people. So, I hope the legacy is that it's seen as a means of building some of those bridges, and a means by which people can come together and co-produce solutions, because they're always more sustainable, and they are hopeful.

Phil: Wow, that's wonderful, I think that collective sense, and that building communities together is a wonderful, positive thing that we can all acknowledge we need more of, we definitely need more of. I'm going to bring this conversation to a close, and say thank you very much Ali, and thank you very much Racquel. Before you go, where should people go if they want to get more information around the subjects that we talked about? 

Ali: Thanks Phil, it's been a total pleasure, it's gone past all too quickly. I mean, the Young Warriors podcast is available on all podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify, Podbean, you name it. So, the six episodes… 

Phil: Great for a run, I should say, it's the right length, 45 minutes of… 

Ali: There you go, you heard it here. Yes, and we're also converting the podcast into a resources for schools that will take its place amongst a wider multimedia resource that we've been making in collaboration with a group of young men affected by violence, they call themselves the young wise men, and that will be available on the Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research website, www.sccjr.ac.uk in the next few weeks. I also have, like, been the lead author of a book project on violence and violence reduction in the UK, that's going to be published by Oxford University Press in January, there'll be some information about that on our website, which is changingviolence.org. I'd just like to leave with one final little thought, you mentioned at the start Phil about the series trying to flip the script on young people, and that actually was a lyric in one of the raps a young man I met in Manchester had, like, flipping the script, where you're rewriting the pain, and I think that really does speak directly to what the point of the podcast was, to try to flip the script, rather than seeing young people as problems, but see them as the solutions, rather than seeing adults as the teachers. Seeing adults as the pupils, and young people as the teachers. It reminds me of Emily, the fantastic youth worker at G20 in Glasgow, talking about what we need to do is, rather than looking at young people with their hoods up as being something to be scared of, look at them as being scared themselves. They've got their hoods up because they're fearful of the world, so just to, kind of, flip our lens and look at young people differently, but also at the same time to pass the mic to them, I suppose that's the other main thing I tried to do with the podcast.

So, try to, like, practice what I preach, if you like, and not just saying, 'Adults should be pupils, not teachers,' actually physically do that. So, part of the last episode is made by the young wise men, entirely by them, and I was just, like, sitting on the floor, marvelling at how incredible these young men were, and there's going to be a bonus episode, hopefully out in the next few weeks, that is a longer version of their own podcast. Sorry, that was meant to be wrapping up, but I'll stop, thank you so much Phil.

Phil: No, that's great, I will be making sure I listen to that. Also, and we should be wrapping up, but when you were talking about flip the script, the very title of your series is, 'Young Warriors,' so that in a way is also challenging, because this sense of negativity around youth, and you put young warriors together, well, actually the crusade, the fight that they're on is a good fight. 

Ali: That's it, and they're taking the fight from the streets to surprising locations.

Phil: Yes, that's it, and Racquel then, what information from you, where should people go to get more information? 

Racquel: Yes, so to see the principles in full it's tce.researchinpractice.org.uk, and that's open access, so all the resources and material are available on that site. So, really encourage people to go check that out, because it also has, you know, tools themselves, how to implement the practice principles in your work. But also some exciting news - I can confirm, because the practice principles were published back in 2023, but the Department for Education has recommissioned us to review and refresh the principles, we want to keep them a bit current and useful, make sure that they're still relevant with any kind of updated research and policy landscape. But we're going to go in and give them a little refresh, and they'll be published this spring, alongside that we're going to be hosting a relaunch event which will be open access, and available to anybody. So, definitely watch this space, we'll have some communication coming out shortly about that.

Phil: Oh, that's fantastic, and so therefore you are also flipping the script, I suppose, to an extent. 

Racquel: Absolutely.

Phil: Not all of the script.

Racquel: Just some of it, just a little bit of it.

Phil: Some of the script, yes.

Racquel: Here and there.

[Outro] 

Phil: Well, that's great, and thank you both once again, and thank you dear listeners for listening to this Research in Practice podcast, we're very, very grateful to have your ears for what has been a really informative chat today. If you want to find out more, obviously as Racquel has mentioned, go to our website at researchinpractice.org.uk, you can also find us on LinkedIn, but that's all for today, thank you very much. 

Thanks for listening to this Research in Practice podcast. We hope you've enjoyed it. Why not share with your colleagues and let us know your thoughts on X (formerly Twitter) @researchIP and LinkedIn.